Yesterday Politico Magazine published Matt Pottinger’s lengthy interview with Chinese pro-democracy activist Wei Jingsheng. Wei grew up a committed communist but over time he became convinced communism was wrong and became a leader of the pro-democracy movement. That eventually landed him in prison for 18 years.

The interview starts with Wei’s youth living in a “leadership compound” just prior to the Chinese Revolution. One of his neighbors was a kid named Xi Jinping who Wei’s younger brother was close with. He has some interesting stories to tell about Xi’s personal history.

My dad is not as high level as [his dad]. But although Xi Jinping did not live in the same compound as I did, he was familiar with my little brother. Because they were of the same age, they were good friends. I did not hear a lot about his doings when he was young. When he was young, he seemed rather reckless. He gave a reckless impression. And he was fairly clever, but he did not like reading. This is the impression I got from my little brother. They were relatively close…

Later the Cultural Revolution started. At the time I still believed in Marxism. I believed Chairman Mao was right, was great, and this and that. Later during the Cultural Revolution, we became the first group of Red Guards. But in just a few months, we were betrayed by Mao Zedong and Jiang Qing. Suddenly it seemed we were no longer revolutionary, but anti-revolutionary. Furthermore, the parents of many of our classmates became anti-revolutionaries.

So after the betrayal, there started a small movement among us youth, a movement to figure out if Chairman Mao was wrong, whether he strayed from the path of Marx and Lenin. So during that time, including when we were sent to the countryside, we read many more books by Marx, the collected works of Marx and Engels, works of Lenin. We read closely and thought about it carefully. That was when I realized that the mistake was not made by Mao Zedong, the mistake was rooted in Marx. You can’t use the most hideous, violent means to build a beautiful society. It is self-contradictory.

That was when I realized, that was the moment when I moved away from communism, when I no longer thought communism was good. Of course the numerous deaths of starvation I witnessed in the countryside were also a catalyst for my change of heart.

As for Xi Jinping, Wei believes that he was probably also a skeptic of Marxism around this time just because most people his age and with his background seemed to be thinking along the same lines. But that seemed to change over time. Wei suggests that his change of heart probably had to do with the fact that he was rising as a leader within the system and thus is no longer made sense to criticize it. But Pottinger pushed back on that a bit arguing that Xi certainly sounds like a true believer in some of his speeches.

I have to say, I’ve read a lot of Xi Jinping speeches. I’ve read the speeches that were not made public immediately, ones that were directed at the Communist Party Central Committee, as opposed to the ones that he’s giving when he’s talking to a crowd at Davos, for example, when he’s speaking to a foreign crowd. When you look at the internal-facing speeches, I have to say, I could still come away with the impression that he is a committed Leninist, that he is a communist, that he’s not faking it.

But Wei doesn’t believe it. He thinks those speeches are written for Xi and they say whatever he’s expected to say as the leader of the communist party. But in reality, Wei believes Xi’s only real commitment is to power and the means of holding on to it, something he says the Chinese call the “Thick Black Theory.”

Speaking of his stuff, first, once you become a leader, it no longer matters if you don’t have an ideology. Your assistants will write one for you. They will invent some for you…

I do not know exactly, but judging from his actions now, his family education might have mainly consisted of what persecution his family suffered during interparty struggles, why they were persecuted, and how they were persecuted. He might have been mainly exposed to such things. And being in power might have reawakened these memories.

He has been slowly practicing these methods during his long tenure as an official. Chinese call it the “Thick Black Theory.” It’s about how to deal with others, how to plot against others and how to bully others. He probably grows increasingly skilled at this with all the practice. So the political trickery he utilizes, the kind used by Stalin and Mao Zedong to oppress and persecute people, is perhaps one kind of [ideology], the kind he adopts.

Finally, they talk about Xi’s future. Now that he’s secured a third term as president and seems to have no plans to step aside in the future, is he going to rule for life? Here Wei thinks Xi is not quite as unassailable as he appears. Chinese bureaucrats may be afraid to challenge him directly but they have ways of not following his lead.

Occupying the office without credibility will not lead to obedience. Chinese officials are very skilled at disobeying without getting caught. There is a Chinese saying, “There are policies from the top, and there are countermeasures at the bottom.” They have various ways to handle it. When others do not have faith in you, when you have no credibility and receive no acceptance, you are in big trouble. Your orders might not be carried out at all.

I hope he’s right about that. Some Chinese people showed a bit of strength when they protested and demanded an end to zero COVID. And it looks like they won that battle. Hopefully it won’t be the last time they stand up to Xi Jinping.